Skip to content

Meeting 2015 08 15

Board Meeting - 2005/08/15

Attendance

Board: - CHAIR - Andrew M. - Andrew[Chair] - ADMIN - Absent - ARCH - Tom P. -Tom[Arch_SB] - CODE - Absent - CONTENT - Andrew M. - Andrew[Chair] - PR - Paul G. - [OGL]Nylanfs - DATA - Doug L. - DistantScholar - OS - Stefan R. - Zaister

Public: - Li-Aung "Lewis" - layip - David "Papa" - PapaDRB - Andrew W. - ampersandrew

Summary

  • PR - Gearing up for Gen Con next year. We've been approached by d20pfsrd to share a booth. Estimated cost is $1,800 to cover materials and reservations (Not including Badges).
  • PR - New Books cleared by license review: Path of War, Humans of Golarion and the Advanced Class Guide. Current review is Dragon Companion Handbook by Everyman's Gaming.
  • Data - Unchained Summoner was expedited for the PFS usage. The general PF system has it in the repo for 6.05.04 release. (PFS Implementation to follow Mark review).
  • Data - FACT/FACTSET system being implemented for Pathfinder Archetypes - Base Classes underway. Barbarian completely converted.
  • No concrete timeline for the release schedule. Pending James Dempsey's feedback.
  • Arch - Worked on structure to implement the upcoming Formula System and INFO/INFOVARS (which are all tied together). Plans on introducing into MASTER around September 9th.

Raw Log

  • [06:02] Morning all
  • [06:02] Hey
  • [06:02] Good morning (for me).
  • [06:03] evening.
  • [06:03] We're missing James?
  • [06:06] and Anestis
  • [06:06] Anestis and Paul notified us they would be absent.
  • [06:07] Okay, I sent James a note. I've got seven after. Time to get this meeting underway.
  • [06:08] * Andrew[Chair] Bangs Gavel
  • [06:08] Greetings and Welcome to the PCGen Board of Directors meeting, August 15th. Our agenda for today is:
  • [06:09] 1) Team Reports
  • [06:09] 2) Next Release, and estimated Release Schedule for 6.6
  • [06:09] 3) Formula System / Subsystem Proposal Discussion
  • [06:10] 4) Public Comments
  • [06:10] Anestis reporting for Admin left this team report:
  • [06:11] Welcome Lewis to the webteam.
  • [06:11]
  • [06:11] I've added Lewis as an Admin on the PCGen website so that he can start looking into moving the remaining sourceforge content. Lewis needs access to the pcgen souurceforge site but I couldn't find a way to do it (i haven't played around with the SF site except to view/copy content form it to the website). Can someone help him out there?
  • [06:11] *** No text to send
  • [06:11] The Discourse forum/mailing list looks interesting, but needs further investigation.
  • [06:11] Need to clear out pcgen_test site and import a copy of the most recent version of pcgen.org for testing purposes. This is proving to be a difficult task as there is no easy way to move everything across.(database references, etc).
  • [06:11] I'm hoping to ramp up my involvement again now that I have a new job, but may take a few weeks.
  • [06:11] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm kinda here, just at work :)
  • [06:12] <@Zaister> Lewis = Li-Aun, right?
  • [06:12] Lewis = Li-aung Yip = layip = lws
  • [06:12] * layip waves
  • [06:12] Li-aung = layip
  • [06:12] <@Zaister> ah sorry about the miding g :)
  • [06:12] <@Zaister> missing
  • [06:12] it's OK, I use the nickname to save white people trying to spell my name
  • [06:13] proceed
  • [06:13] <@Zaister> Ah I see :)
  • [06:13] Paul, you able to give your report then?
  • [06:14] <[OGL]Nylanfs> If it gets to me and I don't repsond in a few seconds post my report.
  • [06:15] Well, you're up. :)
  • [06:15] *** mizu_no_oto has quit IRC: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
  • [06:15] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Okay, since the last meeting three sets have been cleared
  • [06:16] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Path of War, Humans of Golarion and the ACG
  • [06:16] <[OGL]Nylanfs> One is in process for clearance Everyman's Dragon Companion Handbook
  • [06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm going to start pushing for Gen Con booth donations
  • [06:17] *** PapaDRB has joined #pcgen
  • [06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> The current estimate is $1800 for a 10 x 10 booth
  • [06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We have $500USD in the fund currently
  • [06:18] <[OGL]Nylanfs> And I believe we will need $700 to reserve the booth
  • [06:18] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There's also a possibility that we could share the booth.
  • [06:19] <[OGL]Nylanfs> John Reyst from d20pfsrd has approached me about sharing it
  • [06:19] <@Zaister> wasn’t GenCon just last week?
  • [06:19] <[OGL]Nylanfs> which would bump the cost up, but better coverage for the booth and more traffic
  • [06:20] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Yes, but last year the booth space sold out within a couple of months.
  • [06:20] <@Zaister> Oh that makes sense
  • [06:21] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I think that's it from me
  • [06:21] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Any questions?
  • [06:21] Usually sharing a booth decreases the cost, first I've heard it increasing.
  • [06:21] nop from me
  • [06:21] *not
  • [06:22] When do we need the money raised to make next year's deadline?
  • [06:22] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There's an additional cost for having two names on the booth, it's less than getting a whole booth to yourself.
  • [06:22] <[OGL]Nylanfs> March for the full amount I believe
  • [06:23] <[OGL]Nylanfs> If we can get a couple of hundred more we can cover the non-refundable deposit
  • [06:23] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm waiting on paperwork for next years booths.
  • [06:23] Okay, that's all my questions. Thanks Paul.
  • [06:23] how much is the non-refundable part on a shared booth
  • [06:24] And how much is the other guy paying?
  • [06:24] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We haven't gotten to that part of the discussion yet he just approached me a couple of days ago
  • [06:24] you already have more than half of $700
  • [06:24] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I believe the amount to reserve a booth is the same
  • [06:25] <[OGL]Nylanfs> No the booth is $1400 (unless it has increased)
  • [06:25] <[OGL]Nylanfs> we would need $700 for the 50%
  • [06:25] $700 to reserve is what you said a minute ago
  • [06:25] Ah ok, you already halved it
  • [06:26] <[OGL]Nylanfs> And some of the extra is for booth supplies and flyers
  • [06:27] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'll be covering my badge and sleeping space so all the $1800 is for the booth.
  • [06:28] <@Zaister> that’s not cheap
  • [06:28] <@Zaister> but ok
  • [06:29] Thanks Paul. Moving on, for Content report.
  • [06:30] Data has been a whirlwind of activity - 56 bugs / features have been resolved for the upcoming 6.05.04 release
  • [06:31] Unchained Summoner support has been included, tested and placed into the release.
  • [06:32] Due to backwards compatibility, I had to change how the Unchained vs. Standard works. My test 6.0 summoner didn't like upgrading using the new system. But it works nicely now.
  • [06:33] Core Classes have been getting upgraded to the Fact System, and I'll continue to finish that now that the Unchained Summoner work is finished.
  • [06:33] Docs - Lewis has been updating the docs for us, and has dived right in to bring the documentation up to current practices.
  • [06:34] OS - Not much activity in the release. (Stefan, anything to add for OS?)
  • [06:35] <@Zaister> not at this time, I’m looking in transitioning some stuff such as the PF statblock to the new output syntax
  • [06:35] Any questions for content?
  • [06:35] A comment on OS
  • [06:35] Go ahead Tom
  • [06:35] What is the current status of Mythic for Pathfinder, please
  • [06:35] Can we get a summary of chained/unchained and how that works posted to the list
  • [06:36] as we do conversion, there are things where to have the subsystem transition the OS will need to be using Freemarker
  • [06:36] So I think that means a flurry of conversion is going to be part of the plan
  • [06:36] <@Zaister> that is exactly what I want to test out with the PF statblock
  • [06:37] ok
  • [06:37] @PapaDRB - Mythic is released and included in the release.
  • [06:37] @ampersandrew - Yes, I can post to the list how to make it work.
  • [06:37] just making sure it's clear that some things will not be possible in the old export system, so that if OS becomes a constraint, it's not a surprise
  • [06:37] <@Zaister> Mythic might profit from the big expansion by Legendary Games, we should contact them for permssions
  • [06:38] <@Zaister> Tom[Arch_SB]: OK, I will keep that in mind
  • [06:38] @Andrew[Chair] thanks
  • [06:39] <@Zaister> ampersandrew: do you need to be explained what „Unchained“ is in General, or is that clear?
  • [06:39] No, I know what unchained is. I sent you the beginning of unchained Rogue, if you recall. I want to know what the new system is for it.
  • [06:40] <@Zaister> ah right, didn’t make the connection to your nick here
  • [06:40] @Andrew - Thanks
  • [06:40] no, I'm usually nuance, but everywhere else on the interwebs I'm ampersandrew. I'm amking the transition.;
  • [06:40] <@Zaister> Got it
  • [06:41] James is absent for Code. I know we're overdue for an alpha release, and no defined release schedule to some hectic schedules. We'll post an update when I have further.
  • [06:41] Code has been having some clean up.
  • [06:41] <@Zaister> should we talk about conditional visibility?
  • [06:41] surely that's arch
  • [06:42] <@Zaister> ok
  • [06:42] Tom - Your report and then into your big formula discussion. (And anything Code you wanted to cover in James' absence).
  • [06:43] Report: Really been setting up a framework
  • [06:43] getting all the NEWTAG entries ready for the output changes and the formula system
  • [06:43] there are something like 100
  • [06:44] (heaven help the documentation team!)
  • [06:44] yes, that needs to be a discussion at some point
  • [06:45] there are some major structures in docs that I think need to be built
  • [06:46] but that's probably a discussion for another time
  • [06:48] agree, won't hold up the general meeting, proceed
  • [06:48] Not sure I have much else on report
  • [06:51] You wanted to discuss the Formula at the meeting?
  • [06:53] I may need to beg out of an extended discussion today actually - really not feeling well
  • [06:54] Understood. Okay, into wrap up. Any questions or comments?
  • [06:54] how close do you think we are to having INFO and INFOVARs that work?
  • [06:55] The INFO/INFOVARS code is integrated into the formula code I'm working on. Probably targeting around Sept 9 to put into master
  • [06:55] okay, thanks
  • [06:58] commentary; documentation is going to require a lot of work going forward - the deprecation of the FEAT tag is, I think, a small thing compared to FACT/PREFACT and the upcoming formula system changes
  • [06:59] agree
  • [06:59] in this marine's opinion, thing like the list file class tutorials are too far behind to be salvaged, I think less man hours to start those from scratch using all shiny new best practices
  • [06:59] I will see if I still have some notes I traded with Eric on that a while back
  • [07:00] <[OGL]Nylanfs> the Classes were written what 6-8 years ago?
  • [07:00] <@Zaister> yes
  • [07:00] because a lot of things become "reusable" (meaning one code changes enables in many places) we may want to consider docs that are more cross-referential
  • [07:00] Probably. Most of them existed before I officially started 9 years ago. ;)
  • [07:00] <@Zaister> but changes again and again
  • [07:01] @Tom: I am starting to cross-reference things now, i.e. when a document talks about the "CHOOSE:SKILL" tag, I have started inserting hyperlinks to that tag
  • [07:01] yea, it's a bit more than that though
  • [07:01] let me give an example
  • [07:02] The concept of a "format" (like number, string, etc.) is becoming shared
  • [07:02] so FACT can use "Number" or "alignment" or whatever
  • [07:02] as can FACTSET
  • [07:02] but so will the variable system
  • [07:02] So with a little bit of code, I can impact all 3 systems
  • [07:03] *** mizu_no_oto has joined #pcgen
  • [07:03] so for the formatting, the question becomes whether it makes sense to have all the legal formats listed in each tag and updates all the tags each time one is added
  • [07:03] or have a "format" page with a full page of what is legal and only update in one place
  • [07:04] @Tom: I am a strong believer in the DRY "Don't Repeat Yourself" principle; part of the problem with the current docs is that they are highly repetitive and need lots of effort to maintain
  • [07:04] nods
  • [07:04] if you look at some of the recent changes, they are in the direction of "Tag Y: Works like Tag X. See documentation for Tag X."
  • [07:05] or, rather, "Tag Y: Works like Tag X (see Tag X), except for these particular differences"
  • [07:05] every line I can delete from the docs, by de-duplicating, is one less line I have to maintain
  • [07:06] makes sense to me.
  • [07:07] From a CHOOSE perspective it might make sense for you to look at some items on the wiki
  • [07:07] Tom, we will have to correspond in more detail about docs; there is also the substantial problem that I have to actually learn and understand all these new systems, before I can document them
  • [07:07] I'll warn these are slightly outdated
  • [07:07] but http://wiki.pcgen.org/Simple_CDOMObject_Proposals
  • [07:08] http://wiki.pcgen.org/Unique_Primitive_CDOMObject_Proposals
  • [07:08] http://wiki.pcgen.org/Qualified_CDOMObject_Proposals
  • [07:08] really each summarize the tokens that have common behaviors
  • [07:09] right, i'll look at those
  • [07:09] but it starts to get across that there is shared infrastructure (in the case of CHOOSE, they are primitives and qualifiers)
  • [07:09] one more: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Complex_CDOMObject_Proposals
  • [07:09] actually, here is the "root" page: http://wiki.pcgen.org/CHOOSE_Token_Proposal_for_6.0
  • [07:10] all the sublinks at the bottom
  • [07:10] got it.
  • [07:10] Time to close out the Board Meeting, we have the data meeting next. ;)
  • [07:10] there is a description of primitives and qualifiers somewhere as well. May be a list rather than the wiki. I will find and send to you
  • [07:10] Not sure I'm up for that one Andrew
  • [07:12] Primitive and Qualifier thread: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/pcgen_developers/conversations/topics/3682
  • [07:13] <@Zaister> Is there documentation about this Boolean thing?
  • [07:13] Well, if nothing else, I'll be able to touch base with the team and plan out some next steps.
  • [07:13] which Boolean thing?
  • [07:13] <@Zaister> Andrew was talking about something you’re planning
  • [07:14] Andrew, were you thinking it would be a variable?
  • [07:14] That's formula system
  • [07:14] and FACT/FACTSET
  • [07:14] So the impression I got was "Can visibility be a formula value" - i.e. a local variable
  • [07:14] So something like
  • [07:15] aren't those variant and invariant versions of the same thing
  • [07:15] pretty close yes
  • [07:15] LOCAL:SKILL|FLAG=Visible
  • [07:15] or some such
  • [07:15] I may be a tiny bit off on syntax there
  • [07:15] but make it a local variable
  • [07:16] Flag is
  • [07:16] NAMESPACEDEF:BOOLEAN|FLAG
  • [07:16] so it's a Boolean
  • [07:16] so "Visible" is "Boolean"
  • [07:16] <@Zaister> was referring to something Andrew mentioned a few times like „we can do this or that when Tom’s Boolean is implemented“ or some such
  • [07:16] This is what Andrew is referring to
  • [07:16] variables in the new system aren't just numbers
  • [07:16] <@Zaister> ah ok
  • [07:16] they can be Boolean, String, and other things
  • [07:17] String variables! Woo!
  • [07:17] <@Zaister> and they’re typed, not dynamic, right?
  • [07:17] If I can get a 5 min break I can come back and we can talk about it
  • [07:17] I'm feeling a bit better
  • [07:17] <@Zaister> yes I’d appreciate the break myself
  • [07:17] Indeed. It's the potential for "dice" variables that has me going Ahh.
  • [07:18] Sure. 5 minutes all. Bangs the Gavel. Recess

END OF BOARD MEETING, Data Meeting followed.

Source: Meeting 2015 08 15 (original PCGen wiki)